Jody Weis: Navigating from an FBI Special Agent to Chicago PD Superintendent

Join John and Dave with guest, Jody Weis, former FBI Special Agent in Charge in both the Los Angeles and Philadelphia Field Offices and 54th Superintendent of the Chicago Police Department (CPD). 

Throughout this episode, Jody Weis shares his background and career journey, from his transition from the military to becoming an FBI agent and eventually the superintendent of the Chicago Police Department. 

Hear how a terrible interview with the FBI almost turned him away from a 23-year career as a Special Agent, what he thinks of the organizational structure of the FBI, and the cultural differences between agencies. 

Jody also discusses the challenges and rewards of his time as the Superintendent of the Chicago Police Department, leading a large police department, before his transition to the private sector. He highlights the importance of understanding the daily struggles of the community and the need for collaboration between the police, state's attorney, and mayor to make a significant difference. 

Last, he shares his experience of working in the private sector consulting and the satisfaction of making a positive impact. Listen to gain a deeper understanding of the law enforcement skills needed in the private sector, such as salesmanship, investigation, and the ability to read a room. 

Fed Time Stories is brought to you by Kaseware, an investigative case management solution. Learn more at www.kaseware.com/fedtimestoriespodcast

Transcript

0:03

Welcome listeners to another episode of FedTime Stories. We're very happy to have with us today, Jody Weis. My name is John Gill. I'm an executive vice president with Kaseware. And again, we're thrilled to have this opportunity to talk to Jody about insights and inspiration transitioning from the public sector into the private sector. I'll kick it over to my colleague, Dave Brant, who will take it from there. Thanks, John. Hello, everybody. Dave Brant. I'm the chief strategy officer for Kaseware. This is going to be exciting. I'm going to let Jody, our guest, give you his background. But it is an impressive background, a lot of exciting things he's done in his career. And John, I really look forward to hearing some additional details and digging a little deeper about how he got to where he got to in a fascinating career. So let's hear from Jody Weis, our guest today, to kick it off. Give us a little background, Jody, welcome. I really appreciate this opportunity to chat with you guys. You know, my background is kind of, it's been almost like a... a lot of events of opportunity. I went to college on ROTC scholarship. I was hoping to go to college on a football scholarship. I wasn't the right size or the right speed. So I had, they took another option. I was able to get an army ROTC scholarship. That got me into the military. I served in the 50th Explosive Ordnance Disposal Detachment, which is EOD, one of our NEST teams. And there was an incident took place where the FBI came to me and asked me to help recover some explosives out of a creek in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, which I did. And I just happened to make the comment that day of jamming the wrong job because we had a breakthrough ice to actually get into the water to get the explosives out. And then they asked if I wanted to be an FBI agent. And I didn't think I could because I wasn't an attorney or accountant. But I was at a point in the military, I was either going to have to decide to stay in full time or move into something else. So I applied to the Bureau, also applied to the Secret Service. FBI came in first. So I went with them, did that for 23 years, finished up as the head of the Philadelphia field office. And then another opportunity came by. Best man in my wedding called, said, hey, Mayor Daley is looking for an outsider to run the Chicago Police. Department. There's been some unintended events that have taken place that brought a lot of controversy to the city. Would you be interested? And I said, yeah, I'm at a point. I'm going to be 50 in another couple of weeks. That's the time I could get out of the FBI if I wanted to, or I would maybe stay longer. So about two weeks later, I'm announced as the superintendent of the Chicago Police Department. And then after that with Accenture, I was actually teaching firearms on a range under concealed carry. And I got a call because I was doing my own thing. I always answered those calls. And it was somebody from Accenture, a recruiter said, hey, we're looking for a former major city police chief to kind of help us push Accenture's public safety program in the United States. Of course, my first question was, who's Accenture? And then he explained it was the old Arthur Anderson. So it's like, you know what, that sounded interesting. So I moved to that. So my life, I guess, has kind of been opportunities. And I guess I was either maybe smart enough, courageous enough, or naive enough to actually take those opportunities when they came to me. So that's kind of my background. Military, FBI, Chicago Police Department, and then Accenture. Well, there's, Jody, there's a lot packed into that couple of minute introduction. I mean, we could spend hours on a lot of those areas where I want to start is, which John will appreciate exactly what size were you and what did you run the 40 yard dash in that you labeled yourself not big enough and not fast enough. You could have gone a whole different path if you'd have been what, a little quicker? combination of the two. I was a linebacker size with offensive lineman speed. So 40 yard dash, my best time was four seven, but I need to be a little bit faster. And I was okay for the high school level, but it was not going to carry me into, you know, carry me into the college level at all. And same for baseball, you know, an 80 mile an hour fastball, no problem hitting it. When it got in the upper eighties and low nineties, not going to happen. So it was actually kind of an interesting opportunity. I was always into sports and stuff and we had a new commander of the T seat attachment in my high school and he called me up. He said hey if you'll join the Corps I will promise you one of two things a four -year army scholarship or a West Point appointment and I talked to my parents and they're saying well we want you to go to college I said yes, and we can't afford it. Yes, so you need to take this opportunity and he was a man of his word I got a four -year army scholarship went to the University of Tampa and That that propelled me into everything else. So it kind of all started I would almost attribute my lack of speed or lack of size to the career that I had today because who knows where that would have gone if anywhere. Yeah. love it because that everybody has a unique sort of circuitous path to get to where they get to, particularly in the federal law enforcement arena. And our theme, as John has said, and we've talked about in other episodes, is transitioning. And you've had a bundle of them. And I think as we talk a little bit, the significance of the jobs you've had from Army EOD to FBI executive, and then Superintendent of Chicago Police Department, just in those jobs alone, there's got to be huge transitions, huge shifts. huge adjustments in what you were doing in one environment to what you needed to do in another environment. So my question on that is, I know you could tell a lot of stories about Army OD, but as you went from active duty to FBI agent, how was that transition? Was it easy, hard? And how did you find that moving from one position to another? You know, I always like new things and new challenges. I'm not going to say I got bored in the Army, but we were really successful as an ordinance detachment. I was doing a lot of fun stuff in EOD. Playing with explosives is always fun. And you're the commander, so you're in charge and you make a lot of decisions and you try to do what's best for your men and women that you're leading to give them the best opportunities to succeed. So I went from being in command positions almost my entire military career to the FBI Academy and now I'm just one of the guys. And I actually really liked that because I only had to worry about myself. So I took kind of the leadership responsibilities and stuff that you face within the military and now just zeroed in and learned how to work cases. And I was really blessed with the opportunity I had. I was, because of the military background, they thought I could be a little bit more independent and wouldn't need as much hand holding as some of the other baby agents. So I was able to go to the Corpus Christi Resident Agency, working with all senior agents who all did their own thing. So I made friends and worked with Texas Rangers, local police officers, local sheriff's officers, constables. So I got a really wide diverse variety of partners and investigators to work with. And I think it really helped me learn how to investigate cases because I was always working violent crimes and they're more the police related cases. You're doing extortions, you're doing bank robberies, you're doing kidnappings, you're looking for fugitives. So I worked a lot with the cops. So that was a transition of learning how to investigate, learning how to interact with people, learning how to talk to people, which is incredibly important. So it was actually kind of a nice transition away from leadership. And then I wanted to get on the SWAT team and I wanted to do some other things. I had gotten married, so I had to go to Houston to the field office. And up there, I was just asked at one time to be a relief supervisor, which it was kind of like, okay, I'll do that. But then it was kind of funny day because I came in under the science program and the bureau keeps track of that. So I'm pretty happy in Houston. I get a call one day and said, you know, you came into the science program. So we have some openings in the explosive lab and the bomb data center. We kind of like you to apply. And of course I asked, well, what if I don't? They go, well, you can be drafted. So at that point I figured, you know what? I knew the bomb data center guys and I worked explosives and EOD. I supported them throughout my military career. So that got me into the leadership ranks of the FBI and starting as a headquarter supervisor and then how that went. But I think the transition I just wanted to kind of speak about was the ability to embrace what you're given the opportunity to learn. Life is a learning experience. In every one of those stages, you get the chance to learn something new. I learned a lot about how to talk to people. I learned how to interact with people. And I learned how to try to absorb different techniques might be different, but be able to blend them into effective way to actually put cases together. So it was a great opportunity. get away from a leadership role, get back into a worker role, and learn that side of the business, which prepares me, I think, going forward, through you go through different stages of an agency. You know, those are some great insights, Jody. And, you know, I was thinking about what you were saying earlier about opportunities that have presented themselves during your lifetime, whether it was, you know, moving into ROTC in the military and then into Bureau and then later on into the Chicago Police Department. But, you know, it also occurs to me that, you know, what they always say about luck, that luck's a... combination of preparation and opportunity, right? So even though you say that these were opportunities that were presented to you, you were clearly prepared for those opportunities when that door opened that you were ready to walk through it. And I think we can all point to those times in our lives and our careers where certain doors have opened and it's changed our lives entirely because we walk through that door and if we'd walked through a different one, our lives would have been completely different. I did want to just kind of go back to the Bureau for a little bit and I was interested to hear, you know, and you had mentioned earlier, hey, I wasn't an attorney, I wasn't the CPA, but it sounds like you were brought in under like a technology track or a science track that you were saying, which kind of puts you on a particular kind of a pathway within the Bureau. Can you kind of talk a little bit more about that? Yeah, certainly, John. At that time, the Bureau was bringing people in from different categories. You could be an accountant, you could be attorney, then they had the science program, they had the language program. I didn't know anything about that. I mean, to show how ignorant I was, I thought you had to be a CPA or an accountant. So when I went through my interview, which I thought was a complete disaster because we were yelling at each other, but it turned out okay. I was asked, they said, hey, could you qualify for the science program? I said, well, I have a chemistry degree from college. I've never used it, but I did work with explosives and they go, okay, that's important. So they kind of asked me to explain how I would evaluate explosives and stuff like that. So I was able to qualify under the science program. And what that meant was when they wanted to fill a class, the bucket of science people was small. So if they want to take some, I might've been fifth in that group. So I might've been taken a class where in the diversified group, which is the catch off everybody else, maybe I would have been 300. So maybe I never would have gotten into the FBI if it wasn't under the science program. The catch with that is if you come in under that program, just as with the language program, just as in the CPAs, they kind of expect you, very much expect you to use that skill as you get a little bit more time in the saddle. So they spotted me at about the seven. the seven year mark is like, hey, we want you to come back here. We have some vacancies. And it kind of made sense to me. Bomb Data Center taught all the state and local bomb techs. So for me, it was kind of a natural fit. The explosive unit was more explosive analysis, which might have been more interesting. But I went to where my strength was and I enjoyed it. I had a good time there, did it for a couple of years, and then was able to bounce into back to headquarters, get in the violent crimes and fugitive unit. But. That's kind of how that whole science program worked. Much like the guys in the language program, if you came in and you were a Spanish speaker, you were going to go to Puerto Rico. That was just going to happen because you were competing with a far smaller group of individuals to actually get an appointment. So it seemed fair to me. I had an easier path, I think, going that route than what others had under the diversified program, which would have been normally where the military guys came from. Well, you know that Jody, that very interesting, but what will be more interesting for me is what the hell were you yelling at each other about? What was that all about in your interview? This is old school bureau interviews and I had no idea what it was. I had been out, I just came off a detail with the Secret Service. So I put on my best suit and I go in there. I remember the one question, every question I answered, they are like saying, well, why do you think you, why should we believe you? And the first question of the interview, I asked her, who's the mayor of Beirut? I said, I have no idea. And they go, what are you stupid? And I go, nope, I've been working with the Secret Service and I have not had a time to read about the various mayors throughout the cities, throughout the world. So it was getting cantankerous. And then at one point the guy said, do you think you could kill somebody? I said, I don't know. I've never done that before. But I said, I'd like to think that if I was faced with that type of immediate threat and either my life was in danger or someone around me was in danger, I think I could do that. So then they started yelling. It's like, you think, you better know young man. And I actually said, time out. If this is going to go this route, I can leave right now. Well then they calmed down and I was pissed off. So I'm sitting there going, this is BS. So I walk down and the recruiter puts his arm around me. He goes, that was unbelievable. I said, I know, thank you. You're a gentleman, but I'll go home and go, no, no, no, no. The last Marine they had in here, they made him cry. And I go, no way. And he goes, no, no, they're going to max you out on the score. And I go. No way. I said, your gentlemen, I'll talk to you later. I'm going to go to advanced course and probably jump start jumping out of planes. And to his credit, to his credit, about three weeks later, I get the score. I think the max score then was a 50 or 55 and I got a 50 or 55. And then a couple of those guys called me and said, Hey man, we just like to mess with you to see if you can handle it. Of course, now that would never happen. Never, ever, ever happened. Anything like that. So, but yeah, that's how that broke down fast. a great story. It's also... Yeah. I'm surprised John didn't pick up when you were outlining that sequence of events. And I want to make sure we get it clear for John's benefit. In case you forgot, John was an executive with the Secret Service. And at one point in your recital there, Jody, you said, what do you think? I'm stupid. I was working with the Secret Service. So I'm not sure if that meant that's a shot at the Secret Service. Yeah, we all know that. Ha ha ha! I had to like X -ray every device that came through. And I remember the TSD agent telling me, he goes, Hey, a lot of these, it's not really that important. You better X -ray every package that comes in here. And I go, really? They go, yeah, he's getting a lot of threats. I said, okay. So we did that. So I had literally just come back from that, from that detail on like, I don't remember the date, but the night before, and then showed up at the St. Louis field office to be interviewed. So I didn't, I didn't really didn't do any preparation. I crossed to the recruiter. He's like, just be yourself. It's like, okay, I can do that. That's easy. So there was no prepping that I probably should have. Although I can tell you right now, I would not have looked up the mayor of Beirut. It's a little bit, we're all a little probably removed from those days of those kinds of interviews and recruiting protocols, but you could actually learn a lot in the screening interviews about an individual on a lot of different levels. And I would guess today it's pretty sterile and pretty controlled environment. So it's kind of tough to get past that rigid kind of by the book sort of question and answer. So those kinds of stories to me are many times what led to really good people getting into agencies and doing really good jobs because they had a bit of a different leadership skill that would come through in different ways. So that was interesting. Jody, about your rise within the Bureau. And I was thinking back to my own experience at the Secret Service and how the Secret Service is structured organizationally and how the FBI is structured organizationally. And this is probably a vast generalization, but... And help me if I'm off base here. But I think this is generally true. Maybe it's changed since we were working, but... the secret service, very hub and spoke, kind of an organizational structure where headquarters is, is very, is very strong and the field sacks have some autonomy, but are mostly, you know, managed by headquarters. Whereas the bureau, much more autonomous in the field where the sacks have a lot more, ability to, to make independent decisions and autonomous decisions. And, and, you know, you, the sack of Philadelphia. I'm just curious if it is that a vast generalization? Is that something that's true? And I would also think that when we get to the next part of your story where you're kind of put up for the next position that you take, it could be that that was what also kind of brought that kind of positioning for you to be available for that. Yeah, John, it kind of, that's a great question because it kind of fluctuated a little bit. Louis Free was a total anti headquarters director. He viewed headquarters kind of as necessary evil. Most every agent in the field hates headquarters. The oversight, you're just sending just reports back because somebody wants to feed that information monster. So Louis was really good about pushing more and more authority out to the SACs. Bob Mueller, complete opposite. He wanted headquarters the seat of all power. there was a little bit of a battle with that. He grudgingly gave us the authority I thought we needed. We all thought we wanted more. And I fully understand that because of the nature of investigations that are not only across the country, they're international, they're global, there does have to be a central place where things are coming in outside of Philadelphia that might affect Philadelphia. But it was kind of a constant battle with Mueller. I think he viewed SACs as, I'm gonna say, a necessary evil. There are days he probably viewed them as an unnecessary evil. But yeah, he was more of a centralized headquarters type person where Louis Free was much more decentralized, get it out to the field. And I always relate much more to Louis Free than I did with Mueller. Sort of like a dictator or autocrat, like the NCIS days under Dave Brant, maybe. Yeah, that was headquarters as you guys should have known in your careers is all knowing and all powerful. That's it. End of story. Everybody else secondary. Then you agree with that, John? No, seriously. It's interesting. One thing on sort of the personal side, Jody, when you profiled your history a little bit, I always get this question, John and I have talked about it. We all had reasonably senior executive positions in different federal agencies being the special agent in charge of Philadelphia field office for the FBI is a big deal. It doesn't happen overnight. And I would always be asked as I took on certain positions and as the director, well, how'd you ever do that? What happened? And you mentioned sometimes being at the right place at the right time, stroke of luck, but to go where you went and then to continue post FBI, what were the triggers? And everybody's got political aspects of their agencies. Everybody's got to navigate the ups and downs. And you just mentioned of different bosses, different styles, different priorities. But you went to one of the most sought after positions in the FBI. Hard work, right place, right time. Anything unique that you would say for others that you look back and say, wow, I did the right thing then. Yeah, I think Gary Player said, and you're a golfer, so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he say like hard work oftentimes generates good luck or something of that effect? So I've always tried to work really hard. How I got to Philly, I went out as the criminal special agent in charge in Los Angeles, kind of sort of as a favor to the assistant director out there. I liked him and he said, would he mind coming out? And I said, you know, yeah, but I'd rather run my own field office. So when I was out there, one of the guys that worked for me, who was former deputy director, Tim Murphy, he was the special assistant to the director at that time. So he calls me up and you know the players in this one. So Tim calls me up and he says, Hey, are you ready to get out of there? I said, like yesterday, he said, okay, there's two field offices that are open. There's Baltimore and Philadelphia. Which one do you want? And I said, you know, Tim, let me have Philadelphia. And I said, who's getting Baltimore? And he goes, well, it's Bill chase. But he said, you cannot tell him that because John Pistol is going to call him and it's gotta be a surprise. I said, okay, I'll keep it close to the chest. So of course we hang up. He's like, Hey Bill, I just want to let you know, you're going to be getting Baltimore. goes, that's great. But I said, act surprised when John calls you. So of course he did. But that's how I got that one. But it was just Tim who had worked for me when I was the Deputy Assistant Director in Human Resources Division. And I became friends with him. And he had confidence in me. And I had confidence in him. So he just thought Philadelphia would be a good fit for me. And he was right. So that helped me get back there. So it is always about relationships to some degree. There's been jobs I've lost out on where I really thought I was probably the most qualified. But I also understood. that somebody knew somebody, I'm actually okay with that. If we're all about the same talent level and you and John know each other really, really well, I can understand you selecting John over me just because that level of trust that you have. But that's what got me back there. As for Chicago Police Department, that was kind of all the right timing. There had been a lot of incidents, not a lot, about three incidents that took place that got national attention that were not pretty for the department. I was told that they were looking at a concentric coming down on him and that the mayor actually reached out to the president and said, let me fix this on my own. And his fix was to bring an outsider in to run the Chicago Police Department. I was the second outsider since O .W. Wilson in the early to mid 60s. So it had been a long time because I got there at 2008. So it's kind of an interesting story when the best man in my wedding called, he said, don't get too excited about this. You're fourth or fifth on the depth chart. So the first guy they were going to go to would have been a great guy. I knew him well, Mike Mason. But apparently his wife didn't want to go back to Chicago, so he passed on that. Then the second individual, he was all set to go. And then he came, he had an epiphany that Chicago media might be tough to deal with. So then he backed out. So then it came down to me and this other guy and the mayor interviewed me and the mayor interviewed him and mayor liked me. So it was a pretty simple process. But what was interesting in all this, there's a very formalized process in Chicago for selecting a superintendent. You've got the police board, they do a national search. So Mayor Daley, being Mayor Daley, just announces me, nobody ever heard of me. Nobody knew me. The police board didn't know me because I never applied. So I went down there and it was pretty confrontational the first time I met with them. And then I realized that Daley had kind of done this all by himself, which was kind of the way he operated. But I also then realized the power of Mayor Daley because I had a very I thought pretty hostile meeting with the police board. I called up the mayor's PIO and I said, you know, I don't get it. These guys were really pissed off and they seemed upset. And I don't think, I don't think this is going to go well. She goes, really? Stand by. She calls me back 15 minutes later. They consider you a change agent and it will be the opportunity of a lifetime to have you as superintendent. And that's when I clearly realized the power that mayor Daley had from being mayor for 22 years there, that he carried a lot of weight in that city more than I ever, ever So that's that's kind of how I got into CPD. It was it was unplanned. I didn't dream about it. My dream actually was to go run to the critical incident response group and be in charge of all over the fun toys that the FBI had like hostage rescue negotiations, crisis management. That's where I was sure I was going to go. And but this came up instead. So as again, opportunities and didn't jump on them. be. You know, I and John probably similarly have some sense of the FBI culture, the federal agent culture, different agencies, but there's a cultural common place I think we've all been. It had to be a huge culture shock going from a senior executive with the FBI to running one of the, I don't know, probably the third, fourth. Where does Chicago rank in terms of size, PD, top five in the country? So number two in the country, police departments, a big jump. Just on a personal level, how was it going from the relative comfort of 20 plus years, you knew the agency, you knew your job, you're expert in it, to holy crap, I got a mayor who's world renowned, a city that's sort of on fire in one way, shape or form or another. How'd you navigate all that? probably being a bit naive, I looked at it and I always look at how many people are directly responsible for it. is my area of responsibility? You guys have both laughed, but I really thought it was harder being a special agent in charge because not only did I have Philly, I had to kind of have global responsibility and be always looking like something that happens in Philly. Is it going to touch LA? Is it going to touch somewhere else around the world? With Chicago, I really just had to focus on Philly. So my direct reports, the people I was responsible for on a day -to -day basis, directly responsible for, was actually less at the police department than it was in the FBI. You just have to get your mindset like, okay, there's 13 and a half thousand cops. Any one of them can have an issue on a particular night. Any one of them can get into trouble. Any one of them can need my support and service like right then and there. But you just have to keep it in perspective and trust people. I've always had a belief that I just believe in people. If you give them the direction, you give them... you know, guidance, you give them the tools they need to really empower them. They're going to do a good job for you. The problem in Chicago I had was being an outsider and everywhere else I've gone, the military and the FBI, I've always been considered like a soldiers commander or an agent's SAC because I always geared more to them. And I was, I did not have that feeling, reputation. It just wasn't in Chicago. And I realized that I could not get to the police officers on the street in an effective way to let them know. I'm not here for me. I mean, yes, it's an honor being the Superintendent of Chicago Police Department, but in reality, I'm here for you. And it was just getting that message out. And people would not like me. And then when I talked face to face, they're like, he's okay. He's not that bad. But you just, when you have that many people with that many layers in between you and the police officer on the street, it's tough to get the message out. But the only time I felt a little intimidated, I was driving around with one of my friends and we came up on this top of this one highway and it overlooked the entire city. And he's like, wow, you're responsible for everything that happens there. And I'm looking at it, that's reassuring. Let's go back into the office. But you just keep things in perspective and you realize, you know, you're gonna work as hard as you can. You're gonna go out with the people and. Yeah, it was a hard job, Dave and John, but it was also so rewarding because in the FBI, you don't really deal with the people much. You're doing investigations and you go out, even as the SAC, you don't get out. I was so excited to be out with the people, like on Friday nights, going into some of the worst parts of the city, talking to people. They have never had a superintendent come out and talk to them at one o 'clock in the morning and just sit down and have chicken with them in a gangway and just talk to them. I thought that was fascinating to kind of see the world they live in and get a better understanding of what they're dealing with every day, how the things you and I, we take for granted. It can be every day is a life and death issue for them just going to school. Will they be jumped by another gang? Will they be shot? Will a bullet come in from a drive -by shooting, not even intended to hit them, but will someone in their family get killed? Learning what they dealt with every day gave me a much better appreciation of the challenges and some of the more populous neighbors in Chicago, you know, on the South and West sides. And I really enjoyed that. You know I can make a difference when I'm here with these people I can get the district commander to come over and work with them and develop a plan to address the problem that they're facing every day and I learned that from the mayor he would always do these marches and they were kind of you know you're looking at why are we doing this why but it wasn't for the march it was for the hour and a half beforehand where you're talking to people he's taking photographs he called me over can you help out this woman yes I can I get the district commander we sit and we talked to him we learned we learned that there's some maybe gang activity in this one corner and then we handwritten thank you note, hey superintendent really thank you cleaned up that corner. Those type of little comments coming back to me was were very very very rewarding. So the ability to do things for more people and to actually see where you can make an impact on the entire community not just a very small laser focused area like you could in the FBI was extremely rewarding and I feel very blessed to have had that opportunity and we'll always thank Mayor Daley for giving me the shot to do that. Well. That's a quick add on to that and back to you, John. But Jody, to go global for a minute, I mean, we all see, we've all come from histories of law enforcement that, you know, Chicago is still in the news a lot, as is Washington, D.C., Baltimore, you mentioned LA. Question based on what you just said, can a police superintendent of a city that's beset by a lot of challenges, can you make a difference? Did you think in the time you were there or where does Is a superintendent part of a potential for progress or is it no matter who he or she is or what they do, it's kind of a stopgap. There's deeper, wider, broader issues that got to be dealt with. years were you there, Jody? What were the years? excuse me, I was there from 2008 to 2011. I think a superintendent can make a significant difference because he can He can empower the police officers to go out and be proactive and that's hard to do. Where the problem comes up, and I was very fortunate, Anita Alvarez was the state's attorney, great woman, really liked her, no ego, would just roll up the sleeves and let's do stuff, deferred to me most of the time, which as you guys know on the federal side, United States attorneys never defer to the law enforcement side of the house. They want to run the show. Anita was very open to letting me cover stuff. He had a very, very strong mayor. So I could, when he said to do certain things, that empowered me to get the cooperation from other agencies. Where the problem comes about is where you get a problematic state's attorney, where you have a problematic mayor. And then at that point, there's really not much you can do. I feel so bad for the Chicago Police Department because they had a state's attorney that really would much rather have indicted police officers than criminals. They had a mayor who... was very bad. Now they have a worst mayor, in my opinion. They have a pretty good superintendent right now. But it's still, you need those three people working together. And if you have a good state's attorney, a good mayor, and a good superintendent, you can do a lot of good. Because everybody's gonna be by pulling the oars in the same direction. And the officers will feel empowered. When they bring somebody down to the state's attorney, they know that person's gonna go to jail and stay in jail for a while. That will make them far more motivated to go out and look for the next potential criminal and build that case for them. But when they bring people in and they're getting out, no bail, know, the case is going to be dismissed or felonies are going to be downgraded to misdemeanors. They're like, why the hell am I doing this? Why am I risking my life to go out there when I can't make a difference? And unfortunately, a lot of police officers in Chicago are feeling that way right now. Now it's just a job. It's no longer a calling. It's no longer a passion. It's just a paycheck coming in. And that is not how a police department should run. It will not be effective with that mindset. No, that's some great insight. It's like the three -legged stool, right? If one of those three legs isn't standing, then it all topples down and it's not gonna work. So Jody, you've had some tremendously, you have a tremendous variety of leadership positions, whether it's military, the FBI, Chicago Police Department. And then at some point in time, you needed to transition to the private sector like, like we all do. And so question to you now then is how were you able to leverage the skills that you had picked up during your public service career and leverage those into the private sector where you've been in private sector consulting since that time. Right. John, I'm so glad you asked that question because I have this conversation at least once a month. I used to have it probably weekly. You know, you talk to a police officer or an FBI agent and they're, they're thinking about retiring. And the first word you're, you're always phrases. I don't want to do sales. I don't do sales. So I said, okay, let's talk about that a little bit. You go to talk to somebody on the street, you're selling yourself to them because they have, you can't make them talk to you. They can basically go, Hey, F you, I'm not talking to you. Come back with a warrant. So how do you sell yourself? How do you get that person to talk to you? You're always selling yourself. You work on a case. It's an extortion case. You go to the United States Attorney's office. You think this person should go to jail. They're a bad, bad guy. You gotta sell that case to the United States Attorney because he might say, they didn't really mean anything. They were just pissed off and they were trying to just, you know. vent their anger. They didn't really want to do anything this guy. So you have to sell yourself. And I said, so you're selling yourself every day and so much in sales and in the private world. It's people. You're dealing with people. I said, then the second phase, you do investigations, right? yeah. Yeah. Excellent investigator. Okay. So if you're going to come talk to me, would you take the time to learn something about me? And he goes, well, yeah, I go through LinkedIn. I go on your social media posts, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said, would you be surprised to know that a lot of people in private industry don't even think that way. They just show up. And it is such a difference when you show up and you can talk about a person's background and you can talk about where they are in the chain of command of their agency. And then you also, having served in this role, you understand what they need. But you can, you know how to gather intelligence, do an investigation, learn about the people you're talking to, which puts you so much farther along. Just think about it yourself. If you're talking to somebody and they know things about you and just comes up in casual conversation, my first thought, like superintendent, it's like, hey, they actually took the time to learn something about me. even more importantly, you know what their problem was. I could buy everybody in this call a very nice steak dinner if I got a couple dollars from every vendor that came to me and said, hey, superintendent, I've got a solution to this problem, blah, blah, blah. I said, number one, how do you know we even have that problem? And number two, who are you? But it's totally different when somebody like Dave comes to me and goes, hey, how are you guys doing making cases? I read the other day that the homicide clearance rate in Chicago is like 22%. I go, yeah, yeah. How's your system? I said, well, it's kind of archaic. We're actually using like Excel spreadsheets to track leads. Well, you know, I've got a system. Would you just like to, could I just talk to you about it and see some different things? It was developed by some FBI agents and you know, it's pretty good. And I go, you know what? Yeah, I'd love to talk to you about it. If I can find a tool to help the men and women trying to put these bad guys in jail, I'd love to talk to you. But because you took the time to at least understand the problems and the challenges that I was having. So I always tell people, John, like your investigative skills, your law enforcement background, it's the perfect background training to move into private industry because too many people coming into private industry, they're not comfortable talking to people. They're used to doing it on machines. And the mere fact that you talk to people every day is gonna put you in a different category of the normal person that's going into private industry today. So I personally think law enforcement background. FBI background, Secret Service background, any of the federal agencies is a great, great training ground if you want to go into the corporate world following your law enforcement career. You nailed that Jody and the question that John asked. I get exactly the same thing, have for a decade now from anybody transitioning out of the Fed sector, even state locals. Well, I'm not selling anything, but you nailed it exactly. We all have sold something throughout our careers. We just haven't been reimbursed with money. You're selling your case, your investigation, your agency. You're advocating for a transfer of somebody, whatever it might be. The other thing that I wanted to ask you with its relevant transitioning is, look, you know, we've just touched the surface. You had some exciting jobs in the late person's viewpoint. They're probably sitting back going, wow, what? Starting with an EOD guy, FBI agent with fascinating stories there, I'm sure, you know, Chicago Police Department. Suddenly you're a consultant. I used to be asked, used to get asked. Well, you know, what don't you miss it? Aren't you bored, et cetera? And I'd say something to the extent. Look, the good news is I'm not accountable for anything in the way that I once was. You know, I'm not making a decision every hour, every half an hour. The bad news is I'm not accountable for anything in the way that probably much of your career, John's career, my career has been. Having said all that, just as you described, There's value add in what we've all accomplished and certainly what you've done for others and for yourself in different career applications. So how have you found that going from what people would think, man, has he got an exciting life in those positions he's had and most recently held. Now he's a consultant. How's that been for you? I think you have to accept the fact you're not going to have the same, you know, adrenaline rush going out and selling a particular product to a client as you might be from, you know, catching a fugitive that you've been looking for for, you know, six months and he's a bad guy. But you kind of just accept that it kind of comes I think with age and what I like I've always been someone no matter what I do if I can make something better that gives me a certain level of satisfaction for example with Accenture when I when I came on board they they're their revenue in the United States for staying local was like one dollar it was like zero so they brought me on board the first year we're struggling we were like little toddlers trying to get out and we're talking to people and everybody's like who's Accenture when I left It was $44 million in revenue in that year. So pretty good growth during that thing. And you always have the opportunity as we get a little bit older to help develop people. So if I could take an analyst coming in right out of college and, and they have a lot of potential and they're great interpersonal skills and they're super smart, I would immediately spend the time to try to talk to that person and say, listen, you know, let's talk about some leadership because Accenture doesn't cover leadership. They have managers and I'll be the first one to say, I think their leadership ranks are extremely weak compared to what we've all seen in the military. in law enforcement. However, I would spend a lot of time working with young people coming on board and that too was rewarding for me. So I think what you have to look for are different satisfactions that you would get. It can be from always making people better, that all good to great thing is satisfying for me. And then taking something brand new that did not exist and in nine years or so bringing it up to something that is a marketing revenue generating part of Accenture. And you work with really smart people, which I always liked. you. So it actually was it was a different experience. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I think working for large agencies prepared me for the bureaucracy. I wasn't prepared for the numerous dotted lines of leadership. It's not clear. My wife asked me, she goes, hey, who's your boss? I go, I don't know. James in London, I talked to all the time, but he not really my boss. My career counselor, who I thought was my boss, doesn't interact with me at all. So I guess it's like a cohesive group of executives that serve as your boss. And you know, things work out. They get together, they talk, and you get your promotions and bonuses and whatever. You just have to look for things that are going to be satisfying to you in a different way. Because you're never going to duplicate the excitement you had in the 20s. Going down on an IED that could potentially go off, or even picking up some of the munitions. There's only two bad munitions, the United States Army, the Law Rocket, because it had a particular crystal that could fire if a cloud covered the sun. And then the 40 millimeter grenade launcher, which if the fuse turned like an eighth of an inch, it could detonate. Those were the two rounds that you would never want to pick up. Most of them you can just pick up and carry away. They're not that sensitive. But the Law Rocket, very, very dangerous round to go in and dispose of. So you're not going to get that excitement level, but you can still do a lot of good things. And I think you have to take a step back and look for the greater good and say, what have I done today to make the organization better? And if you can say something, that's a positive story. thought. I think that's again another great point. I know John and I probably felt the same thing. The one you mentioned, back to the selling as people transition, the example around homicide rates and potentially someone coming to you with a tool to help you mitigate that. In our case, one of the reasons why I enjoy the role I'm in, and I know John as well, and I'm sure Joe to you as well, for caseware, the uniqueness about caseware is we still have a role to impact. operational impact. So we're doing something that can benefit the world from which we came. Different, but still impactful. Different, but still supporting a mission. And I think to your point of providing value, finding something that may be a little different, maybe not as exciting day in and day out, but still impactful and value add is important. And that's great advice for anyone. you say that day because not naming the department, Phil and I were at on Monday and we were talking about caseware and Phil was pretty smart. He left him with that one feature of the caseware product that is the shortest path. And every person in that room ran up to the monitor and started tracing it out with their fingers to be able to go from one case to another case to another case to another case based upon. you know, persons or a linking object or perhaps a location or an event, they all looked around and said, that is really cool. So I don't know if they're gonna buy or not, but you know, the fact that they all looked around and said, you guys nailed this. And I said, yeah, how many weeks would it take you sifting through paper files because your RMS is not gonna do it for you, that you could actually tie together those six cases and bring together that criminal organization. And the guy that was doing like child trafficking, he turned around and he goes, you don't know how valuable that is. I said, well, actually I do. I'm just hoping that you recognize that because this is such a good deal. He goes, my goodness. He said, this is an awesome, awesome tool. And I got to share this. Phil, when he gave the presentation, the assistant chief looks at me and goes, my God, you are brilliant. So Phil's head got a little bit swollen on that one. But I said, that's a big deal. Assistant chiefs do not tell a vendor that they don't know, even if he is a force recon Marine, that you're brilliant. It just doesn't happen. So a good job by Phil. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha to identify with a lot of what's been said, particularly the parts there. Jody, that you were saying about how people coming out of public service into into more of a selling or business development role They always say the same thing. You're right. They always say I don't want to sell I want to be a subject man or expert. I want to be a smee. No, no, no We have plenty of smee's, you know You're coming to work for for a company and that company is in the business of making money and you're part of that So you gotta you gotta figure out what your role is there? But also and kind of to your point about the meetings that you've been part of, you know, how many times have we heard? or even said ourselves that our public service career, that was our career. What we're doing now is a job, but wouldn't it be great if that post public service job is a great job that you find value in and some enjoyment in? And, cause then you really have a twofer. You've really hit it out of the park. The other quick highlight, and I know we're getting up on time here, but you did a great job, Jody, as you outlined sort of how you viewed things coming through different jobs, transitioning to different roles, because I think you mentioned it, law enforcement folks, whether they're fed, state, and local, or security folks in general, I think underestimate their skill sets. So when they get ready to transition, it's, my God, what am I going to do? I can't sell something. In reality, As you discussed yourself, I know John and I similarly, people from our histories have traveled the world. They've interacted with multiple levels of people on multiple complex issues, problems, challenges. They've had to learn, and you said it very clearly, how to deal with people. And when you move into, quite frankly, I would say a more sterile corporate type environment, they don't have those experiences. So the value add from people with careers like we've had or somewhat parallel, is really an experience of being in the world and dealing with real world challenges, some almost, you know, you can't resolve and then taking that knowledge and applying it in a business way that is unique in some cases. So I think that's what people have to keep in mind sometimes. It's not, can I sell? It's no, you know, you've got real world skills that show in the private sector. equally well and perhaps sometimes even brighter than in the public sector. that's a good point. And something as simple as going into a meeting, you're meeting with a client. My experience has been law enforcement folks are so much better at reading a room than some of our really, really smart young men and women coming out of college. We were at LAPD the one time and our boss was up there talking about something and the head of their CIO said, what's the price tag on that? and our boss gave him the price tag, which is with Accenture was astronomical as you might guess. And I could actually see the CIO kind of like gulp. And our boss at that time said, she goes, now, come on, please don't be afraid. You'll need this. And I'm just looking to go, how could you tell like a law enforcement person, don't be afraid? So we come out of the meeting and I grabbed the CIO and I talked to her for a few minutes and she said, your boss is an interesting person. I said, she just, she doesn't know us in a while. So, but the sad part of that story is we come back, we huddle up afterwards, she goes, I thought that was a brilliant meeting. I thought so and so now views me as a mentor. I go, are you crazy? She almost walked out of the room after slapping you across the face. So your reading of the room was horrible. And she's listening, she goes, how do you know this? I said, because that's all I've done for like 26 years. You always are reading people because, and not to be dramatic, Well, one of those people in the room in our old situations might have pulled out a gun and wanted to kill me. So you're always looking at people to see if you can pick up those signs where it's not going right. And you're not always accurate, but you still get that sense like this is not going good. And we're able to go in and kind of change the conversation to get it back on track. And that's something that it's hard to put a price tag on that, but being able to change direction in midstream and get the meeting back on track is so valuable. And I would challenge there's not a lot of people outside of like, law enforcement folks that can do that. It's just a, or maybe car salesmen or bartenders, but it just takes that skill set. Definitely acquired an acquired skill for sure. Yeah. and really a good point. Well, look, unless John wants to, and I know sometimes he wants to do this, is sit around and talk about the latest episode of NCIS, spend about another 30 minutes and talk about that. I know, I love it. No, seriously, from me, Jody, I have the highest regard and total respect for your career and a lifetime of service and continue today. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to John and I and some fascinating insights, John. Tremendous insights from our podcast today. Jody, appreciate you taking the time to join us and really, really enjoyed all the experience that you've been able to share with us and the insights that you've been able to carry over from your public service into the private sector. So very much appreciate your time with us today. Happy to do that. Although I'm disappointed I didn't get to talk about my greatest challenge right now. I'm okay. We'll have to, we're not gonna cut you off on that one. is it? What is it? we rescued a dog that's 60 % shepherd and 22 % husky and then some other stuff thrown in. She was a great dog, loves people, very reactive toward other people, toward dogs, and very anxious, a little bit nervous, kind of a bell -crow dog, and I have put hours and hours and hours of working with her. It's just like sometimes dealing with people, it's been so rewarding now to have her walk politely on a leash, to be able to pass dogs, just to look at them, but she doesn't go into meltdown mode and be able to have that confidence to leaving her alone. Like right now, she hasn't come in the room once. A year and a half ago, she would have been glued at my side. So that has taken up a lot of my spare time, but it's something that I find really rewarding. And, you know, not having kids, being able to give that dog the most, you know, fulfilled life is something that's really important for both my wife and I. And I think I'm now down in the food chain below the dog with my wife, but the dog at least, rectifies me as the pack leader. So I will always appreciate her love and devotion. But no, that's been a really great challenge of mine. And I've learned so much from the trainer we work with. I think I've learned more than the dog has, but it's really helped us give her a fulfilled life. It's all about making those you care about, those you love, have a better life and take care of them and just be a leader. That's what we try to do. Thanks for the time, guys. You said it was a rescue. What kind of a dog is it? Just a mud or is it a? It's a shepherd with blue eyes. It's got the husky eyes and vocal and then it's got the coat and build of a shepherd. So it's a great dog. I always wanted to get rescues. I like them. I had them like years and years ago and then I got away from that. This is my wife's first dog. So at least we found one who's a total lover. I mean, she looks mean, but if you come to the house, she will just try to lick you to death. Doesn't jump on you, but she will just want to lick your hand and demand to be petted. So I wish she was a little bit more of a watchdog, but you know what? For Janice's first dog, I'm happy to have one that's just a lover. And she definitely is that. Well, you must have hit a note because we'll end as you're describing that by 11 month old retriever pup came into the room behind me and is sitting next to me looking at the television screen or the computer screens. I swear to God, that's just happened. Absolutely. Well, great story again. And thank you, Jody. Can't thank you enough. Great discussion. care. All right, bye. Thanks, John. Take care, Joe. Bye -bye.